Self Steering Q & A

Our steering pump is mounted at wheel level in the pedestal, you know that gives very poor lock to lock. I noticed that pg 563 in the 1st Encyclopedia shows a pump mounted below the pedestal, with a chain drive to turn it. How do you fill a pump in that position? Can you use it sealed with a reservoir at a lower level? Do you have any better suggestions for solving this problem? - Mike B.

Hi Mike: Steering ratio is a function of helm pump size, hydraulic cylinder size, and tiller arm length.

It is usually hard to find helm pumps with enough capacity to get the ratio down to anything reasonable. Hence, the photo of the chain drive from the helm to "overdrive" the helm pump in Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia.

If you have a pressurized system, such as the Hynautics one we used on Beowulf and Wind Horse, it is possible to fill from the reservoir tank in the engine room. But getting air out at the helm pump can be difficult. So allow for bleed valves and/or a way to catch the oil as it oozes out in the bleeding process.

Otherwise, if filling the pump itself (at the highest point), there has to be an access door through the pedestal, or if the pump is below the cockpit sole, you need a way to fill through the plug on top. - Steve

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What would be the best wind vane for a 22 foot O'Day sailboat? What do you think of a basic servo-pendulum steering gear? - Melanie E

Hi Melanie: Easy part first - servo pendulum wind vanes are the most powerful and what we have preferred ourselves (much more on the subject of wind vanes in our Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia).

As to what would be best for an O'Day 22, that is a tougher question. Because of the small size you might need to find something a little different - the typical wind vane might be too big. I'd check with some of the vendors to see what they recommend. One of them is Scanmar at http://www.selfsteer.com/ Good Luck - Steve

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I am building an Aluminum Sailboat with a spade rudder and rudder stock. I am planning to use UHMWPE plain bearings. Would it be a good idea to hard anodise the shaft in the area of the bearings to reduce the wear? Would there be any corrosion issues? Thanks, Howard

Hi Howard: There are several issues at play. First is the alloy of the rudder stock. If this is 6061 or 6063, it would be best to anodize because of long-term corrosion under water. 5083/6 is not so sensitive and you can get away with using it bare (it is also stronger).

As to wear, while the anodized surface is indeed harder, both alloys will wear on the UHMW before the aluminum sheds material.

Bottom line--if you can anodize without busting the budget, I would do so.

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I have bought Prologue, an original 1970 classic Sp&Spears Swan 40. I am going to sail her to Falmouth England...and then onto West Coast Scotland, Transat from Oxford Maryland.

I need a suitable windvane and must, on grounds of cost, try to find one used. Have you any suggestions as to buying one?
Keith F

Hi Keith: I would look for an Aires servo pendulum vane. Great unit, lots of them made. They steer like a champ. As to where to find one, that is a bit tougher. I would start with a "Google" web search for "Aries Wind Vane" or maybe "Nick Franklin" who used to build them. Monitor makes a modern version of the Aries in stainless, but they are going to be more costly and are no more functional.

I know they turn up from time to time as my daughter found one some years ago on a boat in Mexico and added it to her boat. Good Luck - Steve

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Hi, My wife and I are looking at buying a 65' steel hull motorsailor that is not finished. By that I mean all that's there is a
complete hull with two engine rooms. If we buy we will most likely put in Perkins 135 hp engines as that is the design called for. My question today is about steering. The boat weighs at full load 96000 lbs. The rudder is a big one - 16'x14'x6' and weighs 500 lbs. I know very little about hydraulic steering but that seems to be what most of the shipyard managers whom I've talked to suggest. Which make would you recommend as being able to add to it, if and when the situation arises? And which has a back-up in case of power loss? Or which could work on batteries vs engine power? And where can I find this information written down (on the page or the web)? Thanks, Rod and Lucy

This is a tricky question. We've used both hydraulic and cable steering. In your case, with such a heavy boat and huge rudder, which I assume is keel attacked and therefore not counter-balanced, hydraulic with power assist is probably the way to go.

We very much like the pilots that Will Hamm builds--extremely powerful gear and reliable, fairly priced. We're just working with his gear on our latest project. My suggestion would be to contact Will at 206 780 2175 and see what he suggests. He can supply a complete system. Regards - Steve

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Steve at SetSail, I've experienced significant weather helm sailing my 50' custom design cruising catamaran in winds 12-15+ knots. When entering an inlet in confused tidal currents, the helm is heavy and the vessel slow to respond under power. A growing concern among my designer, sailmaker, rigger and a couple of experienced sailors who've been aboard is that the rudders are undersized and/or unbalanced. Can you recommend any source(s) to help me understand more about rudder design and performance? Kind regards, Jim

Hi Jim: There is a section in our Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia about this. Steering problems, typically blamed on rudders, are usually the result of something else that is going on. If the designer is at a loss, then I would look for another multihull designer who knows his business.

Increasing size and/or getting counter balance right is not difficult. The bigger question will be your rudder shafts, and how much load they can take. This will limit what you can do, unless you put in bigger rudder shafts.

If they have enough meat on them, I'd just slap on some foam and fiberglass. You can probably do this for less cost than what a good designer would charge to evaluate the problem and design new rudders for you.

Re counterbalance, we usually use between 17 and 19%. Varies with the rudder shape, proximity of the props, and if the rudders are buried below the hulls or not. Good luck - Steve

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Hello Steve, I am planning a single-handed voyage to the Med. and a few years cruising there before a return through the Caribbean and am looking for advice on the ideal self-steering set up for such a trip. So far it seems that a wind vane plus a tiller pilot to assist for motoring is a good choice. This would work well offshore as it allows me to get some sleep in a situation (offshore) where going a little off course doesn't matter too much. Sailing in the Med however requires more reliable course keeping and my question is whether or not the tillerpilot attached to the windvane will fill the auto pilot needs for this situation. I realize that there is a lot of motoring in the Med.in the summer but when it isn't calm it is often blowing very hard and I am not sure that the tiller-pilot driving the vane will be up for this in the autopilot mode. I'd be most interested in your thoughts on this. Primary steering on the boat is a wheel. Regards, David

Hi David: Tough question.... The first issue is how easily your boat is steered under adverse conditions. The more grunt it takes, the more you need in the pilot. Most tiller pilots do not do a good job in difficult conditions, unless the boat is very well balanced, and the loads are light. My own feeling is that self steering system is more important than inverters, spinnakers, big dinghies, or anything else which is not on the critical for heavy weather sailing/anchoring list. So, I'd tend to go with the most powerful pilot you can afford before a lot of other gear. Steve

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In the Dashews' book, in a chapter on self-steering, they make a comment on sheet-to-tiller self-steering. Would it be possible to have more details on the how-to-do-it?. Thank you. Claudio

Hi Claudio: This is a big subject--one could write a whole book on this alone! Basically, you need to experiment. Every boat and set of wind/sea conditions is different. Have several lengths/weights of bungee cord to play with--and half a dozen small blocks. Usually some form of small headsail--a staysail or storm jib is used to supply the steering pressure. Good Luck - Steve

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Dear Steve, I have just finished your Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. What a book!! It is now on my bookshelf next to Calder, Marchji and Brion Toss - sitting with the greats!! Just a quick question though. You make no mention of wind-vane steering. Have you never fitted this or do you rely totally on electronic autopilots? Thanks, Howard, Cape Town, South Africa

Hi Howard: Actually, we do cover the basics on pages 60-61 - with a lot more detail on autpilots as they are a lot more difficult to decide on. Re: vanes, on smaller boats, where not a lot of motoring is required, they make the most sense. We like the servo pendulum types ourselves - Aires, Monitor types. We used an Aries on our 50-footer - which was a pig to steer in strong winds - and it did very well (especially in a black Southwester in the Aghulas Current coming to Durban many years ago). On the other hand, if you are going to be doing a lot of motoring, a reliable pilot makes the best sense to us - because it works when powering and when sailing. But you need a powerful, well built unit (we like WH Pilots from Bainbridge, Washington, USA). Regards - Steve

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Steve & Linda: What would be your recommendation on offshore aux. steering? We have a Beneteau 40CC with hydraulic steering. We have an Autohelm ST6000+ autopilot integrated into our chart plotter and GPS with Seatalk. We have solar panels, wind generator, two alternators (a large one dedicated to the house and a small 50 amp. One to the engine), and four 8D gels. Being that we have a center cockpit and hydraulic steering, a windvane does not seem to be the answer. To engage the windvane we would need to go below and put the hydraulics in the bypass mode and run the vane off of the emergency tiller. This does not seem safe.

Another thought would be to put an aux. rudder type vane and just center lock the wheel. Being that we have fixed davits and a scoop/swim platform stern, that is not attractive either. My thinking is a back-up ST6000+ unit. Am I being dumb? My second remark is more of a comment on your Seamanship book.

First off let me say the book, as all the others, are fantastic. My wife and I were a little shocked by the photo of your very young children high up in the spreaders at their ages with no tethers. As a farm boy I was climbing everything as a young child. As a result of a fall, I suffered a broken leg before I was two. This was done on solid ground, not a pitching boat. I know children are monkeys but I question its place in your Seamanship book. Thanks again and we are looking forward to any new works you produce. You guys are our role models.

Hi Mark and Janet: Re: a back up for your Autohelm - this is a tough question. The safest route is to back the system up with a servo-pendulum wind vane (not an auxiliary rudder type) and have it drive your emergency tiller - which I assume comes through the deck aft of the aft cabin. This approach gives you an efficient system for when it is really blowing, where it is likely the Autohelm may not handle your steering loads - and a back up in case of power failure (or a lightening hit which wipes out electronics). This is the approach we took on our smaller boats. The alternate is to just get a second Autohelm. If you are doing this, it is best to back up all the components, but not install them. Instead, stow them in some method where they have protection from the magnetic pulse which often accompanies a nearby lightening hit.

Regarding the photo of the kids on Practical Seamanship - they were five and eight at this time, and the photo was taken inside the lagoon at Takaroa in the Tuamotus - flat calm. At sea, they were not allowed out of the cabin without a harness and tether, before they ascended the companionway steps. As there was a lot of running up and down, both Sarah and Elyse usually left on their harnesses. We had extra long tethers with which the kids could sit in the saloon and play, or use the cockpit. Steve Dashew

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Hello and thank you for reading this. On two previous transatlantic passages I used a Plastimo belt driven wheel unit in the cockpit as a backup to my primary Robertson autopilot. The unit worked well. It was purchased in 1989 and has been discontinued.

I am departing shortly for a long passage and would like to know the best alternative on the market today. The steering on our 48' custom built Al Mason Ketch is hydraulic. I want the strongest, most reliable unit available. This will be mounted in the cockpit as a backup to the primary autopilot. Thanks for any assistance, Steve

Hi Steve: If you want the best, most reliable pilot, check out WH Pilots in Bainbridge Island, WA. It is what we've used for years and have found nothing that comes close on reliability or steering capability in big seas. You can contact them at pilotwhale@worldnet.att.net Good Luck - Steve Dashew

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Dear Sirs, Please advise which autopilot system will be better for a 12m. steel ketch: Autohelm or Robertson? We have a hydraulic steering system by Vetus. I would like also to know which self-steering you would recommend? We have a central cockpit. Our intention is to sail from the Arabian Sea to Australia so we need really good gear. So far, we have sailed from Slovenia to Oman (wintertime on Med) - hand-steering all the time and only two of us. To be honest, I (would rather) have something to help in the future. Last question - how many solar panels should we have to be able to run fridge and have a hot water system as well? I have ordered your Encyclopedia and am waiting for it to arrive. Thank you for your help. - Nina

Hi Nina: These are complex questions, and I trust you will be able to find a bunch of answers in our Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia, when it arrives. Hand-steering all that way - the two of you must be really tough! As to autopilot, with a steel boat you will need iether a gryo compass or an externally mounted flux gate (so that it is not influenced by your hull).

Beyond this, we have had very good experience with WH Autopilots for many years now. They are very strong, easy to install, and perform better than anything else on the market in heavy weather - the most critical trime for the pilot to work well. You can reach WH at pilotwhale@worldnet.att.net.

The subject of solar panels is more complex. First comes the efficiency of your fridge system. On our last boat, Sundeer, we had about 20 cubic feet of fridge/freezer and it took six M55 panels to run the system if we were aboard - four would do if the boat were closed. This boat had four inches (100mm) of foam insulation on the fridge - six inches/150mm foam for the freezer.

With a smaller box, and the new vacuum panel insulation, you could probably get by with four panels for 100% of the time, maybe less. A lot also depends on the efficiency of your compressor - the Danfoss style sealed DC units are about half the efficiency of the old-style externally driven units. Good Luck with your projects - Steve.

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Dear Linda and Steve, It has been a while since we first wrote you and we are making progress on the particulars of a our next boat which we hope to use for a couple of years of voyaging, starting in Northern Europe in the summer of 2002 and ending in New Zealand. We have dog-eared our copies of OCE and STS and just returned from a weekend weather course with Mike Carr. We seem to be a bit "in irons" on a couple of topics and would love your advice on them and perhaps a general thought on the direction we seem to be heading with the boat.

Background: I am 41, have sailed/raced for 25 years, raced my Ohlson 38 to Hawaii a few years ago, several other blue water passages under my belt, have moderate mechanical aptitude. Nancy is 29, sailed for 4 years, is taking additional sailing courses, a little frightened of the long passages, and nervous about anything other than a bullet-proof boat. We are both reasonably fit. We are sold on the advantages of long waterline for comfort and speed and since we will not be cruising for very long (this time) want to get a boat that will have a strong resale value (that and inexperience in owning a larger boat have caused us to not consider a custom boat).

Potential Boat: we have a tentative contact on a Swan 56 that will be a one-cockpit design with hydraulic furling headsail, a manual furling stay sail, and some type of manual boom-furling main (to permit easy in-the-cockpit reefing by one person) a couple of electric winches, a bow thruster, etc. A little more mechanically and electrically complex in order for us to easily and safely short-hand a longer water line boat.

1) Hard dodger - My bias is to get one, but several experienced sailors are telling me otherwise. They claim we'll be fine with a soft dodger, that the hard dodger will look bad, potentially reduce the after-market price unless it is easily removed, in the tropics it will impede airflow and make the cockpit hot when at anchor. They say that we'll not want or need the dodger in the tropics. No one at Swan wants us to get one of these - in fact German will not allow the factory to build one, it would have to be added after Nautor releases the boat to us.

What do you think? I know we'll appreciate the hard dodger for the mid-latitude portions of our trip, but what about the tropics where 70% of our trip will be spent? If we do get one, how big would you suggest? Our cockpit is about 8.5 feet from the aft end of the companion way to the (huge) wheel and about 2.5 feet from the wheel aft.

If we do opt for a hard dodger how much of the cockpit should we cover. We want room to sit and read in the sun/breeze, eat meals under the stars, etc. (80% of the time there will be only the 2 of us on board).

We'd love any other thoughts on the topic.

2) Auto pilot - With only two of us this has to be a bullet-proof system and I am thinking that we may want to install two complete systems so that we have redundancy. I have been pleased with my B&G system, Nautor knows and likes these systems and they seem to be wide enough spread that repair will be possible in many places. The B&G with an oversized RAM is the recommendation of Nautor and friends at KKMI here in the Bay Area who have a lot of experience with these systems. On the other hand the WH system that you have seems very interesting, if a bit less user friendly. I have tried to get some information but haven't had a lot luck and am some what skeptical of buying electronic equipment from niche manufacturers who haven't made a serious financial investment in the sailing market. My most important criterion is dependability and reliability, my second criterion is that I'd like it to be fast enough and smart enough to use on a short-handed Hawaii race.

Can you give me any additional thoughts? WH vs. B&G? Two redundant systems?

Any general comments on our potential boat choice and direction would be welcomed.

Congratulations on the 1500 and we love your books, videos, and web site. Nancy is already checking out the vacuum packers and the Splendide. Thanks very much if you find the time to respond. (I know you must get dozens of these types of messages and certainly can't answer them all.) Fair winds, Scott and Nancy

Hi Scott: Some good questions - but first a general observation: If you are looking at a Swan, try and find a design without the bridge deck - we feel the bridge deck designs are inordinantly dangerous offshore. As to your questions:

1-German Frers is right about the aesthetics - it would be next to impossible to do it well on the Swan 56. A properly designed soft dodger will provide the same physical ambiance as a hard dodger, and in the tropics, as your friends have pointed out, it will be a better compromise.

For offshore work you will want one inch tubing (rather than the normal 3/4") along with some solid tubing supports running on the diagonal (rather than straps or lines).

On length, the minimum would be what you need with your knees up, for protection - this is typicall 54". However, the ability to sleep is a nice feature and usually takes more like 70". You will want two opening windows (make sure the zippers have splash covers), removable side curtains, and a back curtain with the center easily rolled up. Ideally, this is all accomplished without messing up sail handling (check out the Sundeer 56 dodger/cockpit photos in Offshore Cruising Encyc.).

Having said all of the above, I should also mention that a true pilot house is really wonderful (albeit heavy).

2-On Autopilots, over the years we've become admirers of Will Hamm's WH pilots. These are head and shoulders above anything else we've seen - including B and G. I assume the Swan is 24V and you will want his 1/2HP drives - they will steer the boat in gale conditions. Good Luck - Steve Dashew

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Dear Steve and Linda, My wife and I finally made the big jump and are sailing around the world. We're now in Lisbon, Portugal. A friend of ours lent us your book, Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia. It's wonderful, and we look forward to borrowing it again. We read with great interest your comments about the Alpha 3000 as this is our primary autopilot. (We have no wind vane) So far we've had only minor problems which were turned into major problems when the unit was returned to the company for repairs. Mostly due to Barron and now Chris, who refuses to even give out his last name. The company's mode of operation is beyond my comprehension. We're wondering if you could give us any input as to what we can do to keep our autopilot working in the best possible fashion without returning it to the factory. Thanking you in advance. Our wishes to you and your family for a Happy Holiday season and your best New Years ever. Harold

Hi Harold: Sorry about your problems with Alpha. Sounds like their business practices have not changed since the time we dealt with them in the mid 1980s. Perhaps our experience, and your more recent run with it, will cause people to check more carefully when they acquire this critical gear. Regards - Steve

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Do you still use the WH Autopilots referred to in your first edition? Where can I find them? Website? Regards, Hal

Hello Hal: Yes, we still use WH. Don't know of anything better. You can reach them at (206) 780-2175 phone or (206) 780-2186 fax. Regards - Steve

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